Book coach, mother of four, and author Catalina Margulis is a multi-talented writer who has spent over 20 years writing and editing for many of Canada’s top publications including Elle Canada, Today’s Parent, and Flare, among others. Her debut novel, Again, Only More Like You came out this past April and follows two friends whose lives fall apart as they turn 40.

Over the summer I ran into Cat at Bianca Marais’ launch party for A Most Puzzling Murder and asked her if she’d be into chatting me with for my Substack (our paths crossed a few times during her editing days). She generously agreed to share her plethora of wisdom she’s accumulated over her years of editing and coaching writers. Our conversation included her transition from journalism to writing fiction, her rollercoaster journey to publication, writing about midlife, and her advice for aspiring writers.

Listen to our full conversation by clicking the audio or read the condensed version below.

SG: Your debut came out this past April. Congratulations! I’d love to know what that journey to publication looked like.

Catalina Margulis: Erica (Ehm) invited me to blog for her when I was pregnant. She's like, “I want you to be part of the Yummy Mummy Club.” And that was the beginning of me writing for me because, as you know, I was always on assignment. It was always on behalf of a wonderful magazine or wonderful newspaper, but it was always somebody else’s story, somebody else’s voice. That was really the first time I was writing as me, talking about my motherhood journey, pregnancy, and then having my first born child. I feel like the book is an evolution from that. That was the beginning of finding my voice. That writing muscle really began about 16 years ago, which is different writing than the journalism that I was doing.

SG: Totally. I can definitely relate to that. Journalism is a type of writing and you become a great writer, observer, and all these different skills, which are helpful in writing fiction. But writing a story is completely different. Did you find there were a lot of gaps or was it trial by error?

Catalina Margulis: Man, it was a whole lot of arrogance. A lot of arrogance on my part. I wrote this story into a screenplay. And then I was like, “Oh, I don’t know anybody in Hollywood. I guess I’ll turn that into a book.” Cause that’s going to be easy. Right? People pay me for words. I’m a published writer. I’m going to get a book deal, no problem. And so I did turn it into a book, and it turned out to be a lot harder than that screenplay. Writing the book forced me to go so much deeper on the story. And all the places where I was lazy, I really had to work to make it work.

So I did take a course, Curtis Brown, in the UK. They're wonderful. I thought that course did a brilliant job of breaking it down so I could see the manuscript for what it was, not what I thought it to be. All I did was listen, learn. And then I took a whole other year to work on my manuscript. I thought that was really helpful because at that point I'd been tinkering for a really long time, not really making anything transformative happen.

Around that time I went to a Toronto writing workshop with Nita Prose who wrote The Maid. She was talking about braided narratives, when you have three different arcs happening in the story, which was so perfect for me because I have two main characters and their friendship is like a character. So that was cosmic that I got to see her talk about that.

And then I had the opportunity to pitch agents. I picked three and I got to pitch them in person and the book was not ready, but it was just really wonderful to get in front of them and pitch the story. They gave me really wonderful feedback and encouragement. Cece Lyra was like, “Love you. Love this story. Send it my way, but don’t send it until it’s ready.” I did not send her the half-assed manuscript. And I did take a whole entire year of implementing everything I learned with Curtis Brown before I did send the manuscript.

SG: When we had chatted before you said you got an agent for your book but this isn't the path you took, which I think is super interesting. Maybe you can just tell us about that.

Catalina Margulis: June, 2020, I sent it out to my top three agents and right away I got an offer for representation. Which is the dream. I'm like, “I am a rock star.” It was the pandemic, so it was a different time. Then the book went out immediately on submission and so I messaged some of my author friends and they were like, “Congratulations. It's amazing you didn't have any edits.” And I thought, “Wow, I must be really good.” I didn't know anything about this business.

It was out on submission for, maybe six months to a year, and then I said, “Please, pause. There's obviously work for me to do.” [My agent] was like, “No, I'm still really keen on it. I really want to keep going.” Mentally, that was a cutoff for me. And I was like, “I'm going to take this and I'm going to rework it.” So I did.

At that point, it was like, “You know what? Just send me your next book because this one’s not really going anywhere.” So, yeah, it died on submission. There were no takers at that time. There was a lot going on in the world. Obviously the writing was great enough to get a top agent at my number one agency and for her to be really excited about it, but there are just things that you can’t predict.

With the authors that I chat with or support I’m like, we will build the strongest case we can for your book. We’ll make the best manuscript. We’ll make the best query letter package. But, there are just so many other things that we can’t control, like market trends. Romantasy is hot right now. And maybe you fit that, but maybe you don’t, maybe you do. And by the time that your book is on submission, romantasy is cold or maybe they’ve already got those authors and there’s a conflict of interest. There are so many other factors. So much of it is luck and timing. Some things you can't control. That's the hardest part.

SG: You went with a small press?

Catalina Margulis: Ultimately it was, “Send me your next book.” I had another book, but I always knew this was my first book. I was like, “This can’t come second. This can’t come third, because I’m growing as a writer and the subject matter is evolving.” And I always felt like this was going to be my first novel and I stood by that.

I did continue to work on it and then started to explore indie publishers because then I realized, maybe it’s a smaller book. Like it’s a smaller story. And, maybe I'll have better luck with indies and I got one. Rising Action, which is a small press, loved it and picked it up. I was super thrilled. And by then I was a little bit more discerning. We spoke a long time about my vision, their vision, and making sure through the editorial, that we were aligned on where this book would go. And I've been, really, really thrilled about everything they've done. It just shows that there are so many paths to publication. If one doesn’t work out, it doesn’t mean the book’s dead.

Share Writer Mindset

SG: But I do feel like part of it had to do with you and kind of how you decided to approach it. You could have easily just said like, okay, this book it's done. What kept you going?

Catalina Margulis: Just before I got that book deal, I actually reached out to Bianca (Marais). I told her what I was doing and I'm like, “I think I'm going to self publish.” She's like, “Just wait.” I was like, “I don't care. I just want the book out there. It's not about making money. It's just a story I feel compelled to share. I just want it out so I can move on with my life.” I love that we have so many paths to publishing.

A lot of us have our own platforms. A lot of us have our own distribution channels. So, for people who have like really big followings, the game is really changing. Because I work with a lot of self published authors, I see the pros and cons and there are some things that I love about being a traditional published author. I love the distribution. I love the in-store distribution. I love that my book is in stores. What drives me a little bit crazy is not knowing who purchased my books. If I had self-published or sold it on my website, I would be able to reach out personally and maybe start a conversation with those people. So that part is relinquishing some kind of control.

SG: We should talk about your book because your novel touches on women, they're in their kind of midlife, so to speak, in their early 40s struggling to come to terms with some of the things that they've done. What made you want to kind of write about that? Was it your own personal experience going through it?

Catalina Margulis: Every mat leave I was like, I’m going to write my book. And then I’d start a business. I did everything not to write the book. And then I got restructured out of a job. And I was pretty pregnant, but I hadn’t told anybody. I keep saying I’m going to do this thing and I still haven’t done this thing. So many of my friends and I were going through all the hopes and dreams that we had. But it's like, if I don't do that, what am I going to do with my life? Can I start over? I've got kids and a mortgage. Even though I’m 40, this is something I should have asked myself when I was 20, and I did, but still ended up in the same place. We were all sort of having an existential crisis moment. Maybe we still are.

It was a lot of reflecting and thinking back and then looking around me, what is everybody else doing? Is there anybody else doing anything that would work for me? I feel like I wrote the script in like 24 to 48 hours. I had all the material. I had all the breakdowns with my girlfriends crying into our glasses of wine. I had all that content and all the puzzles fell into place.

SG: You talked about kind of writing, being a mom. Your time is shorter, you’ve got a lot on the plate on your plate. How did you make time? What was your process for getting those ideas down and getting that draft completed?

Catalina Margulis: Get yourself fired. That helps. No, no. It was a process. It took so many years. The kids change and my day changes around them always. Like now it’s summer break, so my days are looking different because of camps and summer schedules. It was because of that existential crisis where I'm like, if I don't do this now, then who am I? And who am I going to be for my kids if I don't do this?

I still have the same dialogues probably a lot of moms have, which is, if I had focused on making money, I'd probably have more money right now. There's going to be prices to pay. It's going to mean sleeping less or not sleeping in, and getting up early every morning because that's really the only time I can be super creative. There are some compromises, but then the payoff is getting to do what you really, really love and doing really cool things with really cool people.

For the most part, it’s getting up early in the morning and moving my schedule around, my kids’ nap schedules, school schedules, and things like that. But it’s also prioritizing and that’s the most important thing. I don’t do a ton of time. It’s not like a three- or four- or five-hour sprint. It could be 20 minutes, or it could be all I did was I went for a run today, and took notes on my phone, and I didn’t actually sit in front of my computer. As long as I show up every day, even if it’s that small.

SG: I love that you do that. I think that's a really great reminder. I think even myself included putting a lot of pressure on this many word counts or it needs to be this long. Sometimes it feels like 20 minutes isn't enough, but that's all you've got.

Catalina Margulis: Once I started this journey, the days I don’t do that, I’m a pretty angry person. Like today, I’m a little bit hot because I did not do the writing first. I jumped on social media first. Always make sure that your number one priority gets taken care of before everything else because as the day moves forward, it just becomes less and less likely. And then you get further and further away from making your dream happen.

SG: A lot of writers have resistance to social media or they're not sure what platforms to choose or how to present themselves. And a lot of these feel like a time suck. And then you're like, how am I supposed to write my book when I need to show up here, there, everywhere. And you're just like, “Okay, then forget it. I'm not doing any of it.” What’s one thing as a writer, you could do to start building brand presence?

Catalina Margulis: Whatever your passion product, whatever your dream, whatever your job, I think we’re entering an era that it’s really important that everybody’s got something of a personality on whatever platform you show up on.

There is more pressure on us to have an audience and a following even though, yes, you can still get a book deal without it. It builds that case for you. These are businesses and they want to make money and they want to know that you can sell the book. These sorts of things show them that you’ll be able to move the book even if they don't necessarily need you to. It can just be as simple as your Instagram. I tell my writers, be in the conversation, wherever the conversation is.

SG: How does one go about kind of connecting to their own communities? Whether that's your physical community or a virtual community, how do you suggest people start getting themselves out there?

Catalina Margulis: I did another writing course at Humber College. I walked away with my power group and we continue to meet. They were my beta readers for the first few years, it was really nice to have that writing community and that encouragement, accountability, and feedback. The encouragement was so big because as a writer, you're like extra tough on yourself.

My advice for other people would just jump in as soon as you can. Surround yourself with as many writers and authors as you can, as early as you can.

There's so much more you can do with beta reader feedback faster than trying to spot it yourself. But always give the gift of a first draft to yourself. Protect your story so that you've completed it and it's yours and then you can say, now I'm open to quote unquote criticism. You protect it because it's art versus a saleable commodity.

This is for my soul and, and hopefully my soul resonates with other people's soul. But for other people, if they want to be a Jackie Collins, then my approach probably isn't going to work for them. I guess that's important to think about. Who do you want to be as a writer? What you foresee as your end game can play a role in your process as well.

Comps are huge. Not just in terms of the book itself, but also in the career arc. I think that’s super, super smart. Who do you look up to? Where do you see your book Which authors do you see your book beside? How are they carving that path out forward? You can take some cues from what they're doing.

SG: For somebody who doesn't know what a book coach is and maybe even what those offerings look like — who comes to a book coach and what does that look like?

Catalina Margulis: I'm coaching the people on stuff that I had to coach myself. Like, how did I get the book done? How do I get the next book done? And, and it's not easy. It's actually really hard. And that's why I have a lot of tools and I'm happy to share the tools. Some of it is that accountability piece. Some of it is the editorial strategy and writing and editing. I’ve also mentored authors on their brand and the platform and realizing they have a lot more. You might not see what’s so attractive about you or what’s special or unique that we can bring forward to set you apart and that builds up your personal brand. Your personal brand is actually what’s different about you.

SG: You’ve worked with a lot of different writers and I’m sure you’ve seen some common challenges when it comes to either process or mindset. What would you say the number one issue would be or one of the biggest hurdles? And any advice you have on how to overcome that or at least try to manage it?

Catalina Margulis: The most obvious one that I’ll mention first, because you probably have a lot of fiction authors that want to be traditional published, is not enough of them have been paying attention to their brand and platform. The first thing the agent’s going to do is pop on your Instagram. Maybe some agents will disagree with me on this, but I’m pretty sure the first thing they’re going to do is look at you on Facebook or Google you. How are you showing up online? So making sure that you cultivate that and that what they see is what you want them to see.

Community is really important. Lean on your community for encouragement, for support. Whenever you're getting in your own way and having somebody else to go like, that's nonsense, that's ridiculous or whatever.

Share

SG: Would you say some are coming to you already rejected or feeling like, I don't know what to do next?

Catalina Margulis: Obviously everyone has to decide that for themselves. It's so different. When I hear a story, I like to be brutally honest. I kind of know what is the better path for them. If they want traditional publishing and I'm like, “I just don't see this from a marketability commodity standpoint,” I'm not going to get in their way. I would never crush a dream. I'm like, “I'm going to support you. We're going to make the best query package and we are going to make the best manuscript.”

Whereas with some people, they might come to me for self-publishing. I'm like, well, I think you should really give traditional publishing a shot. And I won't be blowing smoke up their butt.

You have this thing in your heart, and I genuinely believe that it’s there for a reason. But it doesn’t mean that the traditional agent book publishing dream is the same for everybody. It doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. There’s a different path for all the different books, but they can find a home no matter what. A small audience doesn't mean it's not valuable. You’ve changed somebody's life or made them laugh and cry or whatever that is. You achieved something amazing.

Don’t miss out on these other posts:

• Why you need writer friends

• Q&A with Liann Zhang, author of Julie Chan is Dead

• Stop chasing validation

As a huge fan of the show, I was thrilled when Bianca agreed to chat with me about her forthcoming novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, which hits shelves on June 10, 2025.

During our conversation we talk about she tackled her complex murder mystery novel as a pantser1, the real reason she’s jumped around genres, why you need to protect your writing time, and how she recommends handling rejection. As a writing instructor, bestselling author, and champion for emerging writers, Bianca doesn’t hold back giving straightforward and actionable advice. I hope you leave with some nuggets you can take with you on your own writing journey.

Read a preview (and pre-order!) of A Most Puzzling Murder at BiancaMarais.com and if you’re in the Toronto area, buy tickets to her launch party here.

Below is a transcript of our conversation2:

Stephanie Gray: I have a guest I'm very excited to be speaking with today. Bianca Marais is the author of the beloved Hum If You Don't Know the Words, the bestselling fantasy The Witches of Moonshyne Manor, and A Most Puzzling Murder, her latest novel which comes out on June the 10th. Bianca is also a co-host of the very popular podcast The Shit No One Tells You About Writing and a creative writing instructor who taught at the University of Toronto, where she was awarded an Excellence in Teaching Award in Creative Writing. Bianca is a social justice activist, a champion for emerging writers, and a force in the Canadian publishing industry. I'm so grateful she's here with me today to share her wisdom with fellow writers. Thank you, Bianca, and a big, big congrats on the new book.

Bianca Marais: Thank you Stephanie, that's such a lovely introduction.

SG: Before we kind of jump into the questions, I'd love if you could just tell us about your new novel. I haven't read it yet. I will be getting my copy at your book launch event, which I will be attending. So I'm very excited. So if anyone's in the Toronto area, it's June the 9th. So the day before the launch. So yeah.

Bianca Marais: I'm holding it up for those of you watching on video. It's called A Most Puzzling Murder. We are doing a huge launch for it on the 9th of June in which we are having the whole literary community in Toronto who we want to celebrate. It's not just the book we're celebrating. It's the whole literary community. It's going to be awesome. The book is another deviation for me. My first two novels were considered sort of literary or upmarket book club fiction. They're now being called historical fiction because the one book takes place in 1976. And even the book that takes place in 1994 has been referred to as historical fiction, which blows my mind. But those were the two more serious books that I wrote about my experience of growing up in South Africa during apartheid and my years of running a nonprofit organization there.

After that, I pivoted because my second novel, If You Want to Make God Laugh, it's quite funny. It's the one that's been reviewed the most highly on Goodreads, et cetera, but it completely tanked commercially. And so, you you're only as good as your last book in publishing. I had to pivot genres in order to make myself marketable. And so I went with witches, and that was The Witches of Moonshyne Manor which was such a fun romp—six witches in their 80s bringing down the patriarchy. And because I like torturing myself and my agent, I decided to write a closed room murder mystery that also has magical people in it. We call it Knives Out meets Succession, but with magical people, it has various choose your own adventure chapters that are more conundrums in terms of thought puzzles and philosophical discussions. Readers can email the main characters for clues throughout the book, so it's a very interactive book. You're supposed to sit with pen and pencil, and you're supposed to mark your book up, which is something we were always told not to do. It's the kind of book I want you to live in and really have a lot of fun with.

SG: When I was reading the synopsis for the book, I thought this is really original. It's very creative. It sounds complex. Writing a book in itself is very difficult, so how did you decide you wanted to do something this big? And did it test your creative boundaries?

The Challenges of Writing

Bianca Marais: I feel like every book I write teaches me how to write it. I remember when I was an emerging author, I honestly believed that each new book was going to become easier to write. I was like, “It's going to get easier.” And I don't know if it's just because I keep changing genres that it doesn't get easier. Each book has got its own challenges and this book has got a lot of different POV characters. We're coming at it from a lot of different angles.

And here’s the thing, I’m not a plotter. The minute I know what's going to happen in a story, I have zero interest in writing the story. So I write to figure out what's going to happen, which is not the most ideal way to write a closed room murder mystery. What I knew I wanted to do was really challenge the reader. I don't know what's happening in the world, but I feel like everything is just being made so much simpler—there's no nuance anymore. There's no opportunity for the reader to really have to get their hands dirty as they figure things out. That really frustrates me because I want people to be challenged. I want people to have critical thinking skills, so I put together a very challenging murder mystery. This isn't the kind of murder mystery where halfway through you're like, aha, I know who did it. I know how it happened, et cetera. And you just keep turning the pages to figure that out. But it's also not something that just suddenly wraps up at the end with characters that came in at the end and you didn't know about so it's the kind of book that if you paying attention throughout the book. You should be able to figure out the mystery. They are based on philosophical thought experiments that really challenge the person in moral dilemmas to figure out what they would do in certain situations But they also provide backstory, but I don't want to do boring old backstory and go back into the past. How can I do that? Choose your own conundrum chapters where they go back into the past and you have to figure out what the character did. And each option you get gives you totally different clues. I really set out to write something big and challenging and a lot of fun. And hopefully that's something that I did. We shall see.

SG: I love it. I cannot wait to read it. I love riddles. I love clues, when you do those murder mystery party games—that stuff's so fun. Readers want to be challenged. I think people who pick up books will resonate.

Bianca Marais: If you think of how many people these days start off their day doing Wordle, doing the Pangram, doing puzzles. We have got a group of friends in Toronto who we had an escape room team, so we join all of these different escape room games occasionally and challenge ourselves to do those. I wanted to kind of make it an escape room challenge, but in a book.

SG: I love it. I love that concept. know you've talked on the podcast about, being a pantser and you like to figure out who your people are in the story as it unfolds. Could you do that with this novel? Or did you plan?

Character Development and Plotting

Bianca Marais: What I did with this novel is I did what I do with every novel. I start with the character who I'm really intrigued by in this instance. It's a world-renowned enigmatologist called Destiny Whip. She was a child prodigy. She's only 21 years old, but has various doctorates, is very accomplished, but quite awkward in the world and within herself. She’s someone who's experienced quite a bit of trauma and is very lonely and isolated. That's what I knew about Destiny and I just dived in as I normally do. I was like, I will figure out who the murderer is. I will figure out who gets murdered. I will figure out why they got murdered and I will figure out all of that as I go along. And that's exactly what happened.

As I was writing, I'd be writing one character and I'd be like, “Ooh, this person's a bit dodgy. What are they up to? They up to no good. Why are they up to no good? What's happening here?” And so I went. As the novel progressed, it started to get quite unwieldy because it was not just keeping track of what Destiny knew in her POV, I had to keep track of what all the peripheral characters knew because each different character can potentially be a suspect, they are red herrings, they know things Destiny doesn't know, there are things Destiny knows that they don't know.

And it became like that episode of Friends where it was like, don't know that we know that they know that we don't know. And so I had to reverse engineer it. So I had to reverse the outline from halfway through and be in this chapter. This is what's happening. This is what Destiny knows. This is what Destiny does not know. This is what this character knows. This is what the reader knows. This is what the reader does not know. And so it became a whole binder. It was huge. I had to have cross-referencing things backwards and forwards. And as I wrote each chapter, I went in to the reverse outline so that at the end, I could work my way backwards and make sure that each little subplot, each red herring was tied up or explained along the way.

SG: That's complex. I was going to ask you about writing in different genres, which you kind of explained a little bit. Now that you've kind of dabbled in a bunch, is there one now that you're like, “OK, I really enjoy kind of this part about this genre. I think I'm going to maybe consider that.” Maybe you already know what your next book is going to be?

Bianca Marais: I do like jumping across genres because each one provides different challenges. I think you can only grow as a writer if you are constantly pushing the boundaries of what you're able to do. And there are many authors who stick in one genre, and that works really well for them. They kind of have a formula they approach, and they do it really well, and they don't confuse their readers. Readers will walk into a store and go, it's a so-and-so book, I know what this is going to be about, and I love it, and I'm going to get it. For me to be satisfied creatively, I need to keep pushing those boundaries. This book allowed me to really have fun with the language because it's a Gothic, dark and stormy night Victorian vibe. And so I really wanted to up the language and make it really frothy and frivolous and have kind of purple prose that just brings that atmosphere to life. And obviously that's not the kind of language I was using at all in my debut novel, which is upmarket fiction and historical fiction. This allowed me to have fun with the prose in a way that I've never have before. It allowed me to plot on so many different levels that I've also never been able to do before. And the many, many POVs and writing very diabolical characters was so much fun as well. In all of my other books, I've written more sympathetic, vulnerable characters. And these ones got to be, some of them were pretty awful. And that was a lot of fun as well. But again, after this, I am going back to upmarket sort of book club fiction because that's the next idea that I have. But certainly after that, who the heck knows? I may go at another route again, depending on how I feel after that.

The Challenges of Writing

SG: I love that. Obviously you're not new to the publishing industry, this is being your fifth novel. Would you say like what gets easier? For emerging writers, we think, as you know, and obviously you talked about, you know, dabbling in different genres and that being its challenge in itself. But what are things that get easier? What are things that get harder?

Bianca Marais: This is my fourth novel, but the other one that I've done that I think you might be referring to is an Audible original short story called The Prynne Viper. That was amazing because writing just for audio was very different to writing for the page, so that was another interesting challenge.

I'm finding that writing is becoming more difficult as I go along. And a lot of other authors I speak to say the same, because there's this freedom when you are writing your debut novel. And there's something to be said for not knowing how difficult it's going to be. And there's something to be said for doing something and not knowing why it's going to be so difficult or so challenging, and then just throwing your heart and soul into it and doing the best you can and having a lot of fun with it.

After that there's kind of expectation on you as an author, and you always want to be upping your game as well. I find that with my books, as I progress, I care less about offending people. I care less about, this book be for everyone? How do I make this book as accessible for everyone as possible?

I had a whole bunch of people who read my last book, The Witches of Moonshyne Manor, and who hated it and gave me one star reviews because I showed an 80-year-old woman masturbating. And they almost had heart attacks. They were just like, this is the most disgusting thing ever. We do not want to see old women pleasuring themselves. And I was like, well, you know, that's ageist. You wouldn't have had a problem if she was 20, but you have a problem with her being 80.

These things that I want to say about the world. I want to say that I hate how women become invisible when they age. In this book, mean, Most Puzzling Murder is about murder and someone getting murdered. But there's a lot in there about how superficial our culture has become and how much beauty standards, how much pressures put on women to have Botox and to have implants, et cetera. In every book I write, whether it's about witches or whether it's about a murder mystery, there are things about the world that kind of piss me off and that I want to say and it'll always come through in my writing. I think I don't mind so much the one star reviews because people didn't like to see an older woman growing into her power.

It's amazing to have older women reach out and go, my god, this is the first time we've seen ourselves faithfully represented on the page and you gave us agency and we were kicking ass. We loved that. I think I'm just giving myself more freedom, but I find technically sitting down to write much harder. With my latest novel, I've been circling the page to find my entryway in for a long time. And I almost feel like it's like getting the yips. If you play sports, if you play baseball, or if you play golf, you get the yips when you address the ball. And it feels like the literary equivalent of that. But sometimes I just need to get out of my own way. And I need to remind myself that.

Character Development and Plotting

SG: Speaking about the themes or the things that really kind of bother you, you've talked about kind of writing from a place of rage, and I really like that. I like that you channel those strong emotions into themes that are relevant, but in a way that's digestible. You're not necessarily lecturing people, but you're making these really great points through literature. What would you say that to somebody that has something important to them, but they're not sure how to channel it into a novel. Is there a way that you recommend they do that? Or do you have any tips on doing that?

Bianca Marais: For me, it's about it always comes down to character. I sit and I get to know a character and I ask about their background and their childhood traumas and what are the things that bother them? What are the things that have happened to them? What are the things that have bruised and scarred them? And I generally find that in speaking to the character, a lot of my own issues and the things that enrage me will come out.

In most of my books, the things that have hurt them and the things that they've overcome are not the main focus of the story. But I do love writing about strong women who've overcome adversity and vulnerable people who've kind of going through the process of life to put themselves back together again. And I've had some readers say, Bianca, do you sit with the checklist to go and tick off each thing like homophobia? Yes. Anti-Semitism. Yes. Misogyny, yes. No, I don't. But if you sit with any one of your friends and you speak to them about their life, let's say you had to write a book about three of your friends or maybe women in your family, and you got to know them, you're going to find out things that are urgent to them and that are important and awful things that might have happened, whether it's sexual assault or abandonment or grief or heartbreak, and to write about the human condition, whether it's a murder mystery or witches, is to write about all of these experiences that make us deeply, deeply human and so damaged and vulnerable. It's never that I sit down and go, well, I'm feeling pissed off about this today, so this is what I'm going to write about. It's certainly that I channel my characters' rage. I channel their hurts. I channel the things that keep them awake at night and that they probably should go to therapy for, and those are the things that I end up writing about.

Balancing Writing and Life

SG: You’ve got a lot on the go. You've got your writing, you've got the podcast, you do your virtual classes. Before you became an author and podcaster full-time, how did you carve out time for writing? Do you find it was easier then, now that it's your full-time career, or do you find because now this is what you do for a living, it's easier to just devote that time? And how do you recommend somebody do that if they’re doing this on the side?

Bianca Marais: I say to people, you need to protect your writing time and you need to be fierce about protecting that time. And then I am such a hypocrite because I don't do it myself. I'm always yelling at other writers, going, defend your time. Take it back. Tell everybody this is my time. But I found that in the last four years since starting the podcast, I had such good intentions when I started it because I started it just after COVID hit. I'd been teaching a creative writing class at the University of Toronto, then COVID hit, classes shut down and we were doing things online. It seemed like everybody in the world during COVID suddenly had time on their hands and was like, I think I'm going to write a book. And so tons of people reached out to me during that time asking for advice.

I thought, well, how can I stop myself repeating the same things over and over and get this advice to more people, especially people who don't have the means to pay for writing classes, because there are so many barriers to entry, so I started the podcast. And then it just took off hugely. Here’s the thing. I love our listeners. I love the writers out there who submit their work to us for Books With Hooks, who submit their good news to us, who share their trials and tribulations and their frustrations along the way. I feel deeply responsible for them and so this has become a full-time job for me to the point that I'm writing at night and on weekends like I did years ago. I need to claw back that time. And my co-hosts have been wonderful with that. We're trying to get to the point where I'm able to go back to writing pretty much full time. I don't know this is true for you, it may be true for other writers, is that I become so irritable when I don't write. It's like my pressure valve. If I go a few weeks without writing, I start to become impossible to live with. My husband doesn't like living with me and I don't like living with myself.

SG: Same.

Bianca Marais: Then I'm like, OK, I need to sit down and I need to go back to my happy place and I need to do this. I think it's just reminding yourself as a writer why this thing brings you joy, because the rejections will keep reminding you why it's horrible and why it's so hard. But we all came to writing. We all came to the blank page because we loved reading and because we had something to say.

Even though a lot of responsibility stopped me from coming back to it, I keep getting called back by its siren song. That’s where I'm happiest and so long as I can keep reminding myself that and other writers, come back, find your joy, come to the page, disappear in it, speak to your imaginary friends, make it your playground. That's the most important thing.

Insights from the Podcast

SG: We have to acknowledge the podcast. I mean, The Shit No One Tells You About Writing is amazing. I'm behind on some episodes, but every time I go for a walk, it's what I need to listen to. It's been incredibly helpful for me as an emerging writer. I feel like I learned how to write a proper query letter from listening to so many Books with Hooks. And you've interviewed the gamut of people, amazing authors who have, you know, who generously give their time. I mean, all of you, the query critiques from Carly and Cece. There's so much that you've heard from so many different writers. Is there something that's really stuck out either as I'm really glad I had that conversation or I take that with me now through my writing life?

Bianca Marais: Every interview. That's why I love doing them. Okay, I lied. There were two interviews and we didn't actually air them. Both male authors who mostly spent 30 minutes not giving advice and just saying that they are amazing and you can't teach that degree of amazing. And there was no advice they could give to our listeners except that they were brilliant and I refused to share those two interviews because I was just like, we are not here to listen to somebody, you know, blow their own trumpet for half an hour. If you can't help other writers, what's the point?

Besides those two, every writer I've interviewed has given me something that I'm able to use. I consider us as writers literary magpies. It's our job to take those shiny little trinkets from other writers and bring them back to our nest. And I always bring all these things back to my nest, whether it's strategies they have when things get difficult, whether it's strategies they have to really boost a scene or how to be ruthless in terms of cutting scenes or how they develop their characters or how they keep coming back to the page or writing under pressure or taking time away from your writing. Every single thing, every episode I've had has given me something that I've managed to incorporate into my own writing. And I keep learning. That's the thing that I love about this is I keep learning and growing as a writer. The more I speak to other writers and they say the same thing. And I would like to think that if I'm writing in my 70s, I'm still gonna be growing and learning every time I can learn from another author.

Handling Rejection and Self-Care

SG: I hope so too. I want to be constantly growing as a human and also as a writer too. One thing triggered by one of your recent podcasts that came out is a lot that's out of our control, especially in the publishing industry. Some of it's luck, timing, there's so many variables. Would say it feels like most of it is out of our control? What do you recommend for emerging writers in terms of being able to handle this at a practicality level and then just also on a mental level?

Bianca Marais: Most writers are very sensitive people. This is why we come to writing. We are empaths. We are people who watch other people and feel their pain. And we want to explore that pain. And we want to walk in a thousand shoes that aren't attached to our life or our experience. And so that makes us deeply sensitive. It means that all of our nerve endings are on the outside.

And when it comes to the rejection, that's the hardest part. The things we don't have control over are, Will an agent love my manuscript? Is it going to land in front of the right agent at the right time? Is the agent going to be in a good mood that day? You know, I've heard from so many authors on the podcast who've spoken about huge luck. Luck has played such a big factor in so much of their success. And with myself as well, my first agent picked up my manuscript because she saw it was a South African story and she had just been with a South African friend and was like, let me do this. And that went to the top of the slush pile. So that was pure luck. But the things we can control as writers is we can control our own work. We can control the writing that we do. We can control how much we improve our craft, how much time we spend every day on our craft and how much we listen to other writers.

We can control reaching out to beta readers, getting feedback from them, revising our work based on feedback from beta readers. I know some writers who refuse to take critique, will not take critique from other people, will ask for it. You'll give them the critique and they will not make one change because they firmly believe that everything they've done is so incredible and so amazing that they didn't need that critique. And of course, they never went on to publish.

As writers, there is a lot within our control. Don't query too early. You know, that's a big mistake I made early in my journey. I wrote a novel, two novels before my debut novel, and I queried them without even revising them without getting any feedback on them. That was a mistake I made. So write the best story that you can. Do that story justice, spend time polishing it, get feedback, get input, revise again, wait until you are 100% ready to send out. And then if you are lucky enough to get individual critique, if you are lucky enough to get little nuggets of wisdom from agents along the way, use everything that you can to revise. So my debut novel was rejected by more than 100 publishers. It spanned four decades. We got 100 rejections. And each time I got feedback, I used it to the point that when we went out again, the story spanned one year in three months rather than four decades. And that was based on feedback that I was getting. So every bit of feedback I got, I revised, I improved the novel, I raised my game. And that's what we can do as writers. And just always remember why you write. Remember the joy of writing. And when you feel yourself becoming disillusioned and disenfranchised and just cynical about the querying process, put it away. Walk away. Come back to the page and write just for fun. Because I think so many writers give up writing because of querying being so difficult. And they've taken away from themselves. It's a joy they've deprived themselves of, which to me is really depressing.

The Importance of Beta Readers

SG: It’s heartbreaking to think actually. Now you talked about beta readers and you do another amazing service for the community with your Beta Reader Matchup program. This interview is going to run kind of after you've closed and then the fall it will open up again. Maybe just talk a little bit about it and why that's essential for emerging writers and then also when you're in these groups, how do you show up as a valuable member? Like providing critiques that are useful to your members and being a good group member, so to speak.

Bianca Marais: That’s so important because so many people join beta reader matchups because they want to get critique on their work, right? And so they're like, I want you to read my work and tell it and I want to revise. What beta readers do not realize is that they become much better writers by critiquing other people's work. When you sit down and critique someone else's work and you are able to articulate this works because this is not working so much because there's a tension leak or I'm not actively curious or I would like to see this happen here or perhaps this isn't plausible to this character. Once you're able to articulate those things, you can bring back into your writing toolbox yourself as a writer. I think it's so important to go into beta reader matchups, not just thinking about the critique you're going to get, but to say, want to become a really good critiquer so that I can add value to my group members, but also so that I can add value to myself.

Every group works differently. Some people like to meet over Zoom. Some people like to email each other critique, et cetera. And something I can't promise in a group is chemistry. Chemistry is so important when you are with a writing group because you have to make yourself vulnerable. I remember sitting crying my eyes out at some of my earliest writing groups because we were talking about deep and painful things. Because writing can be about tapping into things from your own life that are incredibly painful, and then writing about them in a fictional way. And you need to find your people.

In the Beta Reader Matchup, I sort people according to genre and according to time zone, so that they can get together and chat. Some people have hit it off so well that they've traveled across the world to each other's weddings. They get together once a year, somewhere for writing retreats. Other groups, not so much. And some people have had to sign up for two or three Beta Reader matchups to find people that they've had chemistry with. But they do keep coming back. And we're going to have an episode on the podcast coming up with Sue Hincenbergs, who wrote The Retirement Plan, which is a very buzzy book. It sold at auction. People were fighting for that book and Sue talks about her various writing groups and how each one gave her something different.

But it's also important as a writer to have your cheerleaders. Have your best friend, have your parents, have your siblings read your work and go, “You are the best writer and I love this,” because you need that when the soul crushing days come. But that is not going to improve your work. Only other writers can improve your work. But here's the thing as well, there are going to be times you are going to get feedback that does not best serve your story. You will get beta reader critique partners who just don't get what you're trying to do and who are going to steer you wrong. It's so important to get that discernment as a writer to be able to say, I agree with this for the following reason. I don't agree with this for the following reason. And if that wasn't working, I'm not going to use the suggestion they made. I'm going to come at it from a different angle.

Getting that kind of critique helps you to trust yourself more and trust your voice more as well.

SG: That's helpful. All that advice is incredibly, incredibly valuable. Thank you. Thank you, Bianca. We've talked about a lot. You've given a lot of good gems that I hope people are taking notes who are watching. What's one takeaway you think that kind of every emerging writer should really consider when they're writing, maybe when they're querying in those early stages?

Bianca Marais: Yeah, I think self-care is so important during querying. And I've seen different people do different things. I've seen a great idea where someone puts $10 into a jar every time they get a rejection letter, $20 if it's a form rejection. And then after a certain period, they go out and they buy themselves things and they spoil themselves. It's just so important to remember how subjective this all is.

And this is why on the podcast, I love it when Carly and CeCe, who are my co-hosts, who are both literary agents, disagree on the same query. One will go, this was brilliant. One will go, no, I don't agree. It is so subjective. And just because an agent is passing on your work does not mean that you are not a good writer. It is not a reflection on your talent. It may just be the market at the moment is not selling those kinds of books.

I've interviewed authors who wrote a book, queried every agent, got rejected by everybody. They put the novel in their drawer. They pulled it out three years later, did nothing different. And suddenly there were bidding wars for that book because suddenly it had become timeous. So one, keep improving. Keep nurturing yourself. Keep trying to be the best you can be. But also grant yourself some grace and understand that there are so many people submitting manuscripts. Agents are unindated. Sometimes they only have time to read a few paragraphs of your work. It's not a reflection on you. It's a reflection on the industry. And if it's something you're passionate about, keep coming back at it. Keep trying.

SG: Amazing. Thank you, Bianca. I am so grateful to have the chance to chat with you. I feel very lucky, s thank you so much. And where do want people to go? I mean, obviously the podcast, which is also I should mention number one in fiction on Substack.

Bianca Marais: Yes. Yes, we have an incredible Substack. For those of you who aren't podcast people, and I'm going to tell you a secret here, I'm not a podcast person. I started a podcast without having ever listened to podcasts. I'm not really a podcast person myself, but we have a wonderful Substack that has these critiques in them that our agents do and we interview authors, we have Q&As, we have so many resources there that really resonate. You can go to theshitaboutwriting.com. We've got a lot happening there.

My website is BiancaMarais.com. The Beta Reader matchups happen there. And if you are in Toronto, please come to my launch on the 9th of June. We are going to have a ton of literary agents and special guests. A ton of authors are going to be there. We have Erica Ehm. We have Mairlyn Smith doing stand-up comedy. We have poetry readings. It is going to be a literary love fest that will remind you about your love of writing.

SG: I can't wait. I can't wait to meet you in person and be there too.

Did you enjoy this conversation?

Listen to my conversation with Liann Zhang, author of The Globe & Mail bestseller, Julie Chan is Dead.

I also chatted with author and founder of The Book Incubator Mary Adkins about her memoir, You Might Feel a Little Pressure.

Subscribe now

I recently had the pleasure of speaking to Liann Zhang, debut author of Julie Chan is Dead, a thriller about a woman who takes on the life of her deceased twin sister’s influencer life, and quickly learns of the dark secrets behind her social media facade. Publisher’s Weekly called the book, “a witty and insightful thriller about the pitfalls of influencer culture” and it was recently included in Glamour magazine's “Best Books for Book Clubs in 2025.” Liann is a second generation Chinese-Canadian and a former skincare content creator who splits her time between Toronto and Vancouver.

In our conversation, we discuss her path to publication, being delulu, navigating rejection, how a post on Reddit helped her query and why she doesn’t think authors need to use social media to market their work.

You can find Liann on Instagram and her personal website. Julie Chan is Dead comes out on April 29, 2025.

Share

Below is a cleaned up transcript of our interview.

Stephanie: I'm thrilled to be speaking with Liann Zhang. She's the author of Julie Chan is Dead. It's a thriller about a young woman who steps into her deceased twin's influencer life. Liann is a second generation Chinese-Canadian and a former skincare content creator who holds a degree in psychology and criminology from the University of Toronto. The book was recently included in Glamour magazine's “Best Books for Book Clubs in 2025” and Publishers Weekly called it a witty and insightful thriller about the pitfalls of influencer culture.

So welcome, Liann. Thank you for being here. I just want to give you like a big congrats on your debut, which comes out at the end of this month. Obviously very excited to pick up a copy. And I'm also very happy that you're here to chat with me. So welcome. And I guess we'll just jump right into it. So I guess to start, maybe if you could just like walk us through your journey to publication.

Liann: For sure. You know, this definitely wasn't my first or second or third novel. I think I wrote like maybe five or six before landing on this one. This was my second book that I've ever queried though, where I thought it was like decent enough to get an agent. And this is definitely one of those moments that I feel like in the publishing world, it's kind of an anomaly how fast everything kind of happened. I've definitely experienced with like the first book that I queried where

I was at it for like a whole year, you know, and just, I did get a handful of requests, but never anything that resulted in an offer. And I had to shelve that. but this one, was kind of like a crazy, I guess people just really found the story to be very enticing and commercial. and everything was like a whirlwind. got like a, an offer, like the week that I started querying and similar experience on submission where I guess editors were very intrigued by the idea and I got some offers pretty quick there. So yeah, it's felt like a freaking wild ride to be honest, so it's all great.

The Path to Publication: Trials and Triumphs

Stephanie: No, that's amazing. Congrats. And I think it's interesting that you mentioned too, like this wasn't the first novel that you ever wrote and it wasn't even the first novel that you ever queried. When did you, like when was your, first novel that you wrote? Like the very, very first one that you were like, okay, I have completed a novel. Like maybe this is something.

Liann: I feel like, okay, the first one where I was like, okay, this is something would be the first one that I queried. Just because the other ones I feel like were like training wheel novels, you know, like I did finish them. They had good ideas in there, but they definitely were not at a point where I was like, I'm proud to have it out in the world and have people like looking at it. But yeah, I mean, that was.

I started writing seriously during COVID. I feel like a lot of people did. And the first like legitimate novel, guess, was a year or a bit like a year before this one. So, I'm going back in time. How long ago was that? I guess I got my deal like 2023. So, like around like 2022, 2021-ish. Yeah.

Stephanie: Okay, so did you have like a writing group or people that you kind of showed your manuscript to that you felt comfortable or were you just doing this like all on your own?

Liann: Yeah, at first it was all on my own. And then eventually I did join two writers groups that were monumental to me because I really did not realize that how little I knew about storytelling. I was just like, like the characters are doing something, something, right? You know, was very, honestly a little bit delusional about that because, you know, you're writing and you're like, this is like the next best thing, but no, it's like actually garbage to be honest, but I didn't realize that. I was so thankful that some of my writer group partners had like established careers, like some of them were ghost writers or like self-published. They like had a good sense of the story structure of like what's supposed to be in a scene, how I'm supposed to like establish a goal, the beginning of every scene, like that stuff I had absolutely no idea. I was kind of flying by the seat of my pants.

But you know, they told me to like read different craft books and I start to read those and really hone into like what it is to actually build a story aside from just vibes, which is what I was doing before.

Stephanie: That definitely gives hope because I feel like, you know, like for me, for example, and I've talked about this before in some of my writing, but yeah, like I had written a manuscript and queried it and like I'm only kind of writing, or I'm on my third now, but like I think it takes probably a few manuscripts for most writers to actually get down kind of like how the story works, especially if that's maybe not your background, like you didn't go to school and you know, don't have necessarily a creative writing background. Yes, I can relate. So you said everything happened really quickly. Would you say that was surprising for you? Like how did that differ? Cause like your first book that you queried, did you like shelve it really fast? Were you like, you just knew, okay, this actually isn't ready to be my debut or I just know it's not where it needs to be. Like when did you know to kind of give up on that?

Navigating Rejection and Building Resilience

Liann: Yeah, I mean, I, maybe I shouldn't say this, but to me, like, when I was hoping to like, write and like get published, I had a lot of delusion about it. Even with my first book that I was querying, I was like, this is going to be the one, you know, like, I felt so confident. But no, I was like querying that book for like a whole year and I did batch queries. you know, as I got rejection, I've said another one.

I don't know if you're aware, but especially after COVID, the reading times of a lot of agents got slower and slower and slower. So you'd wait for months for even a rejection email. but I definitely was crossing my fingers, hoping that I would get represented for that one. Cause wouldn't that be so fantastic that my first query novel gets representation? but unfortunately it didn't work out. think around like, when I was getting requests, I was very optimistic, but as like, you know, the eventual like more rejections that I got, I kind of realized that, maybe this is not where it's supposed to be. And I was still like continually writing new books after that. Like this is not even my next book after that queried novel. I wrote like two other ones in between there, but I'm like a pretty fast writer. yeah, so it definitely was one of those moments where I didn't know.

Even ‘till like the last one that gave me a rejection, I was still like holding on to like a tiny bit of hope that that one would get represented. But in some way it kind of worked out because that was like a very niche genre. I probably would not have gotten, even if I did get an agent in, I wouldn't have moved on to submission that well, might not have been sold and you know, who knows what would have happened, you know? So I'm glad it was with this book.

Stephanie: Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's like one of those things you, in hindsight, you're thankful for. Did you find rejections? I mean, well, every writer obviously faces rejection. It's like just what we do. Did you find that difficult, like always, or did you find like as more of them happen, you were just like, hey, whatever, like I can move on or what do you, guess, what do you feel? How do you feel about rejection? How do you manage it?

Liann: I feel like I was very prepared mentally to know that I would get lot of rejections because everybody, especially if you kind of get in that space, you're kind of told that you're going to get a ton of rejection. So I was like kind of mentally prepared. When the first few came in, I was like, OK, you you get that little stab in your heart where you open up the email and you have like a college acceptance letter. Like you're like, my gosh, maybe. And then you don't get it.

It sucks, but then, you know, I just delete the email and I try to move on because like what else am I going to do, you know? So yeah, you just have to move on with that and hope for the best next time.

Stephanie: Right, totally. That's true. Yeah. Now, I'm super fascinated by the fact that your background is in psychology and criminology. I feel like psychology is such a huge part in writing in general. And then, you know, obviously this, your debut is a thriller here. So is that something that you had wanted to incorporate in your writing? You mentioned the other book was a different genre. Was it just like actually, I know a lot about this. Maybe I should like write a novel?

Influencer Culture: Insights from Experience

Liann: I was totally by accident to be honest. It's one of those things that, as I'm doing more of these interviews, they're asking me, “Did your school or what you learned impact what you wrote?” And it's one of those things where I'm having to look back and see maybe subconsciously I was, you know, influenced by this one class or this one lecture or this one study. And it probably did, I think.

I just wasn't aware of it happening. But when I look back, I'm like, okay, yeah, that's definitely what brought about these themes and this idea, like the idea of cults came up and took a class on the psychology of cults. And I didn't even realize that until people started asking me about this question. you know, one of those subliminal things are working in my head.

Stephanie: Very cool. Yeah, I feel like that's kind of how creativity works. Like so much stuff is just like in our consciousness, but we don't know when we'll use it and bring it forward. Super interesting. So your novel takes a look at, a critical look, I should say, at influencer culture. Now you were a former skincare content creator, which is super interesting. I don't know if it's on the internet. I didn't do some deep dive into the background. I was more looking at kind of your your new persona as an author. That world is obviously very interesting, the content creator world and influencer world. Did you know you wanted to fictionalize it in the sense that you like you wanted to critique it because you had experienced it? Like, was it some way like cathartic in a way to kind of look at this? That world that you were in?

Liann: Yeah, definitely. While I was in it, when I was deep in it, I absolutely had no plan to do this whatsoever. I feel like, I this is coming up a lot, but I have a lot of delusion when I'm like in a certain place, like when I was in the middle of that influencer world, I was like so delusional. I was like, "Oh, this is great.” Like I'm going to be keep doing this. This might be my career. And then eventually I hated it. And then I was like, okay, absolutely not. And I pivoted to writing, you know? And then I became delusional about that.

I think it's one of those things. Once I started to write, I realized that this like influencer world is very like interesting. It's kind of like the new celebrity in some ways, you know, like you can't really avoid it. If you have a phone, everyone's interactive with it and there's so much. It's kind of this idea of the same thing with like celebrity thrillers and stuff. That's so common. know, they have an outward presentation, but there's like so much that’s hidden behind the screen. And also just like the social dynamics and everything that kind of goes into it. I felt like there was a lot there to talk about. I just had to find like a really creative way to put it into a story. I don't think people really want to read about like the minutiae of being an everyday influencer. Like that, that'd be boring. You just watch a vlog. So once I figured out a platform and like a story to slot it in, yeah, everything just happened like magic.

Social Media Presence: The Author's Perspective

Stephanie: No, I love that. I'm very excited to read your book, so I will be picking it up when it is out in the world. Now, another thing, I don't know if it relates, so I noticed like you have a great social media presence, you've been you know promoting your book online, and I think a lot of authors and writers in general, kind of resist wanting to do that. We don't necessarily wanna put ourselves out there. Maybe we're just afraid to be seen because we'd rather be behind a computer, which honestly, I would rather be most of the time. Would you say that that's something that came easily to you because of your experience doing that? Do you have to push yourself to be present online? And then do you have any tips for writers who are nervous about putting themselves out there?

Liann: Yeah, I feel like the social media thing, it's one of those things where, you know, I stopped being a skincare influencer because I got really sick of it. But it was different because for that, you know, I was kind of compelled. Well, eventually I stopped and I did more photography, like portfolio work with brands that I established a relationship with. I wasn't like pushed to post like every single day, which is kind of the tiring bit and the boring bit, especially if I was like, in school and had so much else to do. But with this, it's like, I'm really going at it, having fun with it. I'm only posting things that I think are funny and I want to do. Nobody at the publishers were like, you have to go on social media. In fact, most people have told me that there's very little an author can do to push the needle on social media. Unless like you happen to get viral, which I did have one viral video, but I don't think it even translated that much to actual sales. Like it would have to be a consistent amount of virality to like get people to buy. But I think for me, it comes naturally just cause I am a genuine consumer of social media. Like I am on TikTok a disgusting amount of time and I see the trends as they're coming up. I don't have to force it. I kind of live in that space.

And in a way, also felt like I had something to prove because I wrote a book about social media. Imagine, I sucked at it, then I'm not authority on the topic. I needed to kind of prove I knew what was going on and how to work the system in some type of way. But I would say I think most authors do not have to worry themselves about social media. In fact, like, stay away if you're not good at it. You know, I think we see a lot of social media, some authors getting canceled because of what they say online, you know? So if you love it like me and you know what it's about and you enjoy being on it, go for it. But I don't think it's worth like, you know, no amount of Canva using is gonna push significant sales. It's really just, I I know some people like to do it because they feel like some type of control because they can't really control other things. But if it's stressing you out, it's just not worth it, I think.

Stephanie: I think that's good advice. I think you'll have a lot of happy writers with that answer. Now, what about, so you talked about, I like that you kind of talked about being like a little delulu, which honestly, it's funny. I wrote about that and I feel like some level of delulu is required because otherwise you would just be like, well, I can't do this. It's so hard. You know, whatever the stats are, it's easier to get into Harvard than get a book published.

So going back to my delulu. Would you say that there's something that surprised you or like in the journey, like you had certain expectations? Did they meet up to your expectations or like in terms of like once you got your agent?

Delusions of Grandeur: The Writer's Mindset

Liann: Again, I think it was so different with this novel because I also was, I don't know if you know about this, it's a resource that I some users can use if they're not aware on Reddit, there's like a sub Reddit that's like just for writers trying to get into traditional publishing called Pub Tips. And I am an active user on there for like so long and I posted my query up to workshop because that's kind of the main thing. You can post your query to workshop and I just remember I had posted maybe like six other queries or other stories and they've never gained traction, but I posted this one up and people were like, my gosh, like this is huge. Everyone's like I have nothing to say, like this is great. It really fed the delusional fires within me and then I started querying and like I instantly started to full requests.

And then like several days later, you know, I got my first offer. Then it just like grew and grew and grew. So with this book, I was really delusional because I felt like I was like, stumbled upon a gold mine, you know, like for some reason, everybody just wanted it. And then when I was with my agent, Samantha, I think she happened to have a business trip in New York. So she was able to talk to a lot of the editors in person. And like from there, she told me that a lot of them were already interested. And then once I heard that, I was like, oh my God, I was like in the middle of revisions. It's like angelic words to hear. And then, yeah, and then she sent it out the same day. I would get like people would start reading on the same day. So it was one of those things where I don't think if it was any other book, would have been like that. It was just because like this book was like crazy. And I guess people thought it was really marketable and intense and fun, you know? So I kept getting the delusion fed. My delusions kept getting proved. So it even delusion, it was just like truth. I don't think it would be true for all the books I've written, but just this one, it's really feeding my ego fires within me. It's like the narcissism is growing. So yeah.

Stephanie: But it's like you got you got to take the wins while you get the wins, right? So I think it's good to. I think it's amazing and you should enjoy every little bit that's coming in and you can just have so yeah. OK. I saw on social. I don't know what was your Instagram stories. I'm also unfortunately online more than I should be. I should be writing. And you were joking about procrastinating writing your next book.

I mean, you've written a lot of other books. So I didn't know, obviously before we chatted, how many books you had written before. Do you think that for you, how long or how far along had you gotten in this book? And do you feel like now that you have a book that's published coming out into the world, does that change kind of how you're writing it? Or does it add extra pressure? Or are you just trying to almost take it from like, let's pretend I am just Liann. No one knows who I am.

Writing Process: Fast and Fluid

Liann: Hmm, that's a great question because I am procrastinating writing on a second book. I still write very fast, but like it's different now because technically since I sold the book like two years ago, I've written like three other books. Yeah, but like they're like bad. know, some type of thing where I'm writing it and I can feel that it's like not good.

Stephanie: Well, you are fast.

Liann: There was one manuscript that I thought was good enough and I did pitch to my agent and my editors and they were like, yeah, we can use this one. So I thought that was gonna be book two. But then while I was revising that so it could be readable, another idea popped into my head that's a lot more aligned to my debut novel in terms of voice. Because this voice is actually not usually the voice that I write in. It's very contemporary, it's very witty.

It's a little bit more like my personal voice, but like a lot meaner. But normally I write in my third person. It's like, I used to write like a lot of historical fiction, which is literally the opposite of who I debuted in. But I had an idea for a story that's more aligned to this voice. Like after I've written all of those books and pitched the second story. And then I mentioned it to my agent and she was like so enthusiastic about it. And she told me that like it's usually best for your sophomore novel to have it more aligned with your debut, just to build an audience. And so they're expecting a certain something from you and to deliver it again instead of losing them after your first book. So for that reason, I've been procrastinating because now I was like, I'm trying to write it within the next few months. I'm supposed to hand it in by May. Yeah, so and I just started writing it in February. So I'm like this.

Stephanie: That makes. Yeah.

Liann: I've gotten a lot done. very close to finishing it, but you know, the procrastination is bound to happen. It's part of the process.

Revising and the Art of Editing

Stephanie: Totally. Do you do anything to kind of help you with procrastination as in like not procrastinate?

Liann: I wish I was better with it. I think it's because I'm so fortunate to say I am doing this full time now. So I don't have work to do in the middle of the day. So I know even if I somehow waste and you know, rot away the entire morning, there's some days where I just need to write from like 9 p.m. to like 12 or like into the night, you know? So I know there's always that time. It's not very healthy, but it's open.

The thing with me is like, even if I put my phone away, I'll still find other ways to procrastinate. Like I'll check my Goodreads or like, I'll look at other things that feel productive, but aren't actually writing. So I really just need to get into the mindset. Like once I get into writing, it's kind of like easy, but it's like the first step of like doing the first sentence. It's like so hard. but really I just have to force myself. And then once I get into it, I'm kind of like carried into the flow.

Stephanie: Nice.

Liann: And I'm always confused at why I can't force myself to do it in the first place. But it's so hard, but also so easy. Yeah.

Stephanie: Totally, I feel the same way. It's like once you finally get there and start writing, like, why didn't I do that? It wasn't that hard. Just thinking about the action of doing it almost. Now you talk about writing fast. So I mean, I feel like I'm not sure. I mean, maybe just some people are fast writers and some people aren't fast writers. But for us, and I'm going to put myself in there, I find them, I don't know if I'm not faster, if I just don't have a great process. And I guess we'll see with my next manuscript that I'm working on.

But do you have any like tips for writing fast or you just somebody who just like once you get into it, just the words just flow out and you just like keep going and then you don't even think about it?

Advice for Aspiring Writers: Lessons Learned

Liann: It's mostly the latter I do find. It's mostly why I have the issue where I churn out a lot of books, but very few of them make it because I don't outline. I'm starting to outline now because I'm recognizing the importance of it, especially because I'm going to do this as my job. But a lot of times I'm writing, I'm letting the characters do their thing. And then I realized like, is like actually awful. And like none of the characters, the ending is awful, none of the plot lines are being wrapped up and then I don't know what to do with it because then it feels so daunting to go back and fix it. And then for me, I know a lot of people are like, okay, I'm going to leave it and then come back to it. But for me, by the time I want to come back to it, I already have other ideas that I want to do more and I'm more eager to work on those that will never ever go back to the other one. And I think that's part of why I write fast is because if I don't get it done within a few months, like I get so bored of it and I want to do something else.

So I kind of have to force myself. But again, I'm one of those writers that once I'm getting into the zone, I'm like, I lose concept of time. Sometimes I'm like, my, my cats are like, yowling at me. And I'm like, what's going on? And they're like demanding to play with me. Cause it's like almost nighttime and I usually play with them. And I'm like, you know, so it's one of those things. I wish I could give advice, but it really is just how my brain works. Like, yeah.

Stephanie: So then are you somebody who dislikes revising? So after you finished your manuscript, you wait a bit before you start to revise or are you just like, I'm just gonna get right back into it just so that you can get it done?

Liann: I usually get back into it and I'm typically like, I think it's called like a waterfall revision. Like before I start writing the new part, I go back and edit previous scenes. So it's usually decently clean by the time, well as clean as it can be. And then sometimes the reason I do that is because I'll be editing the previous scenes and realize it's awful. And then I'll like have no motivation to work on it. But for that reason, it's like decently clean. And then what I love is like cut down because I'm also, again, because I don't outline, I'm like, I tend to be an overwriter because I'm just like doing whatever the character compels me to do. I love cutting, but what I hate is rearranging things and doing all of that. I recognize it's a necessary part of writing, so I do it. But there are times where I really enjoy it, but most of the times it's like, I'm like scratching my head, like, I don't know what to say, especially working with an editor. Now it's like, oh, they're suggesting things and they have to find a way to like implement them. That's like a whole other thing. But there are moments where I find joy in it. Like when I'm like, fixed the thing, but the process of doing is not always as fun, I find as writing the actual thing.

Stephanie: Totally. To end result, once you get there, like, just like sitting down and writing when you're actually written a bunch, you're like, that was great. Yeah. Okay. Okay. This is, guess, I think this is my final question. So knowing what you know now, I guess about kind of going through a debut, kind of publishing your first book, what would you tell Liann before she started, maybe when she was writing her first, the first manuscript, which she said was just like terrible or whatever, that you did see the light of day, you didn't even query. What would you tell her? What would you tell that version of Liann?

Liann: I would tell her to get in a writing group ASAP, to be a little bit delusional, but also recognize that you're not the next best Nobel Peace Prize winner. You're not gonna get the Giller anytime soon. You need some learning first. And to read at least one or two craft books to learn the beats of a story. And then afterwards, I think also to continue consuming media because I get inspired by a lot of different pieces of things around the world. Also the reassurance that you're gonna eventually get there, you know, keep at it girl. You're gonna in a few years, you're gonna be doing this full time as a job. yeah.

Stephanie: I love it. Well, congratulations. I just want to say congrats on everything. And yeah, I really appreciate your time.

Liann: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Stephanie: So yeah, pick up Liann's book, Julie Chan is Dead. And I'll put all the details below too so you can find her on socials and everything.

I didn’t originally plan on doing video interviews, as I’d much prefer to sit behind vs in-front of the camera. But I also believe it’s important to be constantly expanding and this is something that is—most 100%—out of my comfort zone. Plus, I thought that by putting myself out here more that I will be able to connect with more writers and creatives.

I learned a lot from this first episode, including that I say “like” too much in conversation, but that’s OK, I’m learning and I promise I’ll get better with time. ;)

For now, these Q&A’s will continue to be free to my subscribers, but if you enjoy my work, please consider becoming a paid subscriber and supporting what I do. Likes, shares and comments are also incredibly helpful to getting my work out to others who may find it helpful.

Subscribe now

For my inaugural episode, I’m thrilled to have sat down with author Mary Adkins. As I briefly mention in the intro, I met Mary through The Book Incubator, a hands-on writing program she runs, and I was a student of for two years. I learned so much through the program and Mary, and am incredibly grateful I can also call her a friend.

Next month, Mary is publishing a memoir that explores pregnancy loss and grief, and prior to that she has published three novels, including When You Read This and Palm Beach. You can find Mary through The Book Incubator, her website and Instagram. Below is a transcript of our conversation or watch the video above!

TW/CW: Our conversation touches on pregnancy/infant/child loss [approx. timestamps (17:00-20:00 and 22:00 - 25:00)]

Stephanie: My guest today is Mary Adkins. Mary is the author of three books When You Read This, Privilege, and Palm Beach. She's also a writing coach and the founder of The Book Incubator a hands-on writing program that I had the pleasure of being a student for for two years.

Next month, she's going to be releasing her first memoir, You Might Feel a Little Pressure, Finding Wonder After Miscarriage, published through Third Rail Press, a press she's co-founded. Needless to say, Mary is a powerhouse and extremely generous mentor who I'm very lucky to know as a human. I'm thrilled to be chatting with her today as my first guest in my author Q &A series. Welcome, Mary.

Mary: Thank you, what a nice intro. I'm so flattered, thank you.

The Writing Process: Challenges and Growth

Stephanie: No, I'm so, so happy to have you here. So, okay, so yes, you're a very busy woman. You do a lot of things. And you've been an author now for a while. When You Read This came out in 2019, if I'm correct. So maybe, like, what gets easier and what stays the same when it comes to, like, your process and kind of mindset around writing?

Mary: It's such an interesting question because right now I am in the process of revising a novel and it's reminding me the process of writing this novel, which is my fourth novel, the process of writing it and now revising it has been in some ways like the hardest novel I've written. And that's really interesting to me because you would think it would get easier, right? I would. I don't know. You cook a certain meal a certain number of times, and it gets easier to make it. I would have thought that a novel was the same way.

And I do think there are elements that are easier, like the stuff that I taught in The Book Incubator that you're really familiar with around just particular kind of approaches to process that I think work really well and that I've learned not editing as I go on the first draft, like setting the first draft aside before I come back and revise it, like revising for big story level stuff first. Like those kinds of things I now know. You know, it's like I have a toolkit, and it's like, I know these are what work. So I don't have to spend time trying to fish around for what's a good process for me.

But mindset is the tricky part because it is like my fraud syndrome, is like I have never published a word. It doesn't matter and that's interesting to me. Because I'll tell myself like, Mary, like, there is evidence that you can be a good novelist. But that doesn't matter. Like I still have the, but like maybe the previous novels weren't actually good to like, OK, but if they were good, maybe you don't know how to write anymore to like, like, or maybe you're just like not able to show up in the way that you used to be. Or maybe this idea isn't good. Right. Like it's just and it the thought can take on like so many different forms. But it's ultimately just that same fear of being like, is this a waste of time? Is this going to be any good? Am I going to embarrass myself? Should I be doing something else? And then things like that. so I feel like this is sort of probably sad news to some of the listeners. They're like, you mean it's never going to end? That piece kind of doesn't end. That voice does not go away. But I do feel like the process, those process skills absolutely get better.

Perseverance in Writing: The Long Road to Success

Stephanie: There's some hope then. Speaking of, you know, taking time and the process and everything, I do remember, so you reworked your manuscript for When You Read This, that became your debut, like many times. It wasn't just like, you know, some people write it and then, they just happen to get an agent. But you had to rewrite it many times. Like how did you persevere through that?

Mary: Yeah, so when you're saying many times, it was like six or seven years of rewriting it and rewriting it and rewriting it, like probably 13 times. And the truth is that it wasn't really perseverance because I always thought this was the draft that was going to be good. I always thought success was just around the corner. It was like, this is it.

Like the way that like an animal will like, I just picture like a cat following a little mouse that you're dragging along the floor. Like I just always thought I was just like one foot away. And then suddenly six years had gone by. So I don't know, I think it was, it was, but you know, I mean that's sort of a silly answer because the truth is like I did actually persevere. Like I didn't give up on the book, you know, and I think part of that was like a very dogged kind of stubbornness because it was like, I need to make this book work because until four or five years into it, I didn't have any other ideas. It wasn't like, well, I have this other idea. It was like, this is my idea, so I need to make this one work. Then at some point, I did have the idea for Privilege and actually took a break from when you read this to start fleshing out the story of Privilege, which became my second novel. So that was really nice when that happened because it took some of the weight, some of the pressure off of the first novel, because it was like, I do have other ideas. It's not just that one. And then when I went back to that draft, I feel like I, I don't know, I just felt less pressure. So maybe I could play around with it a little bit more. I'm not really sure. I've never really thought honestly too much about how that kind of interplay like may have helped me with the first novel, but I definitely did work some on Privilege and then go back to the first novel and keep reworking it.

Stephanie: So that could be a good tip then for people who are stuck or feeling like maybe I don't have anything else in my back pocket when actually you do potentially.

Mary: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then also just strategically, I mean, I know I've talked to you about this before, but I think it can be really smart to have a second project going because my agent ended up getting me a two-book deal in a couple of places in the UK and Germany. she didn't send the second book. They didn't have a draft of it. They just bought it based on concept. But she was able to say this exists, this is what she's writing, which was very cool. I didn't do it for that reason. I didn't even know that was something that was possible at the time.

Mindset Struggles: Imposter Syndrome and Guilt

Stephanie: Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. I remember when you told me that I was like, what? That is possible. Yeah. Okay, so thinking about The Book Incubator. You work with a lot of writers. I was one of those writers, yay. And it's an amazing community. And I'm sure, you know, you see s lot of the same kind of themes probably come up in terms of like, you know, obviously like craft, process, et cetera. But when it comes to mindset, what do you kind of see like a common theme or like what a lot of writers tend to struggle with? I mean, new or, you know, maybe they've been doing this forever. Is there anything?

Mary: It's like a who am I to be doing this? And I think, yeah, like you were saying a second ago, I don't know if this was before or after we were recording, but the thing about the parent guilt, I mean, like 90 % of writers in The Book Incubator are women and many of them have children. And I think while fraud syndrome I think is kind of universal.

I think for lot of times for moms, there's like an extra layer of it because it's like, I'll hear like, it's really difficult for me to justify taking this time because they feel like, and I relate to this a lot, it's like, there's so much to do, there's like, they feel like they should be, like if they're writing on a weekend or something, it's like, well, I feel bad about it.

Like, I feel I'm supposed to be spending time with my kid. And like, I want to be spending time with my kid, but I also want to write a book. But I think there's a lot of mental resistance that comes. I mean, it is the recurring theme I hear for people coming into the program. And I think it's one reason why a lot of people in The Book Incubator do end up writing their books. And I think a big reason for that is that when people start, like, one, we give them permission, but also we're like, you just need to carve out a few hours a week. If you can do that, you can do this. It doesn't have to be your whole weekend. You don't have to take seven hours on a Saturday. don't write. And also, it only has to be for a few months. This isn't forever. You're not committing to not seeing your kid every Saturday morning for the next five years. It's just for maybe three months, four months, I don't know. However long it takes you to write the draft. And then you're gonna step away from it anyway. so I think just breaking it down into manageable pieces can help with the mindset.

Stephanie: That actually brings me back to my experience in The Incubator. I think I had kind of almost finished a draft. I can't remember, but I was having trouble revising it and I didn't know what to do. But then I managed to write another full draft. And it's funny because now that I'm not in the program, I don't know what it is. Like, I don't know, it's just the community and just kind of having that support and just feeling like, okay, I've invested in myself. So now I can take the time.

It's funny because it's like now I'm kind of struggling with the same thing. You know, being a mom too, you're just like, well, how can I do that? I'm supposed to be like engaged with my child. I'm not supposed to be like, quote unquote, wasting my time doing this, even though you don't, you know, you're not wasting it, but you feel like just that guilt never kind of ends.

Mary: Well, and there's that. I also think it's connected to capitalism and all that, because it's like, at least I feel this sort of internalized sense that things that are worth my time are things that are going to make me money for sure, right? Where it's like, so that's tricky.

You asked what's easier and what's harder. I found it, in some ways, at least easier to justify the amount of time I was spending writing when I had a contract, because I was like, I'm getting paid for this. This is my job. it's, I mean, what's the expression? New levels, new devils. It's different now, because I don't have a contract for this book that I'm working on now. And in some ways, that's really liberating, because I don't have to send it to anyone until I'm excited about how good it is. I don't have a deadline where it's like, however good it is, that's when it's going in. Or that's how it's going in, which is what the last two novels felt like, because I had the contract before I wrote them. But also with this one, it's like no one's waiting on it.

When you don't know the outcome, it's bringing me back to when I was working on my first novel, when there was so much uncertainty. It's bringing back my empathy for the writers in The Book Incubator, because it's like, I remember now what it's like to write with all that uncertainty. I don't know if this will see the light of day. I don't know if anyone's going to publish this or pay me money for it.

Navigating the Publishing World: Agent Relationships

Stephanie: Actually that was kind of one of my questions because your your long time agent left the industry, which you know, you hear about that happening, editors leaving agents, leaving to do other things. You know, I guess obviously from there's kind of the writing and having to kind of start, you know, in that way. like, how did that impact you just like that relationship? Because the agent, you know, writer relationship seems to be pretty serious. How did you kind of navigate that whole experience?

Mary: It was super scary when she told me she was leaving the industry. Because it's one, hard to get an agent. I think it's, for many of us, the most difficult part of the process. And it's like, that's your advocate. That's your ally in navigating publishing. And I'd been working with her a long time. We had a really good relationship. We were friends. We still are friends.

So was very scary. But interestingly, I have since, or at the time I kind of knew, but since then I have met or had friends, met more people or had friends who have switched agents or whose agent has left the industry and they've had to get a new agent or like something has come up where they've had to find a new agent and.

In fact, the other day I was realizing that most of my author friends are on their second or even third agent. And so that was strangely comforting because it was like, OK, they just find a new agent. It's part of the process.

Stephanie: It's just part of, right, your career. In your career, you will likely have more than one agent.

Mary: Yes, exactly. I know you mentioned memoir. My memoir is gonna be coming out next month. so I was querying agents with that memoir because I needed new representation. And so, you know, while we'll probably talk about the story of the memoir in itself, like I was, I got a lot of notes from agents, but it was actually also really encouraging because a number of them said, I'm not going to represent this memoir, but send me your next novel. I got some warm leads out there for if and when I ever finish this novel.

Launching a Small Press: Filling the Gap in Publishing

Stephanie: That's good news. I'm excited for your next novel and your memoir. Yeah, maybe let's talk about your memoir and then the press. I think it's so cool. I love what you're doing. Your memoir explores your experience around losing three pregnancies. You've published it through Third Rail Press and you co-founded that, which incredible. Maybe discuss your decision to launch a small press. It's dedicated to telling the untold stories of women which is super amazing because it's you know we want to hear more of these stories and you kind of when you get out there and I'm sure you heard you know people don't want to hear that or we're not interested in topics that explore X, and Z. So yeah maybe just talk about that I'd love to know more.

Mary: Yeah, so I was querying my memoir and querying agents and also sending it to small publishers, really just trying to get it out there. And at some point, getting so many nos. And it was interesting, not even necessarily like, I had very few nos from people who read pages. Most of these were nos that like people being honest about being categorically uninterested in this as a topic. They didn't even want to read the pages. And that really surprised me, honestly, because when I was going through my miscarriages, I was looking for miscarriage memoirs, and I couldn't really find any. essentially found one called I Had a Miscarriage by Jessica Zucker.

I was like, there's a gap in the market. It was one reason I wrote the book. It was like, I want to write a memoir for these people who are going through what I'm going through. Well, as I was getting all these nos, I was like, this is weird. Why is this happening? So I reached out to an editor friend to be like, do you have any theories on why this is happening? And she was so generous with her time. She was gracious. I mean, she immediately was like, let's go on a call. So we got on a call, and she was like, I'm going to be honest with you. And this is where the name of the press is. She's like, fertility is the third rail of publishing. No one's going to touch it. And I was both stunned and also not. It was that feeling of like, finally. It's like the opposite of being gaslit. Finally, someone was just spelling it out for me.

I could stop, you know? She's like, people don't wanna touch it. She's like, we go into acquisitions meetings and like, if someone brings one in, it's just kind of quiet in the room. Like, I don't know if it's too sad, it's too hard of a topic, but like, I don't think you're gonna find someone who wants to publish this book.

And again, it sounds like it would be the most depressing conversation, but it was so liberating. And I was so grateful. It was depressing in a way, like on a macro level, but it was also like, OK, I'm free to just stop trying to do it this way. Then I immediately called the co-founder, the woman who co-founded the press with me, Alexandria, who also did The Book Incubator. Did you know, Al? We call her Al? She was after, yeah, she did it after you. So she had just graduated from The Book Incubator and she had written a memoir on infant loss and miscarriage, incidentally, that's in there too. But I think a big, kind of the big focus of her book is infant loss.

Stephanie: No, I don't think I ever met her.

Mary: She had been queering as well and was not having success. And so I called her and was like, hey, I have some news. Just got this conversation. I know why you're getting those as well. And this is why. We were kind of on the phone commiserating about this. And she's like, have you ever thought of starting a press? And I was like, I mean, I have. But l don't have time to just run a press. To your point, I'm like, I don't have time to run a press. I would have to stop doing something else. And she was like, well, what if I ran the press? And I was like, that we could maybe do. And so she's like, well, serendipitously, her time had recently freed up, and she had been looking for a big project. And she was like, I feel like this is actually sort of like the universe is just kind of bringing everything together. And so long story short, we founded the press. And when I say I founded the press, mean I created it in the exact way that I'm telling you with her. And I am involved in kind of as an ideas person. And then it's publishing my memoir. So I've been working on editing the book and all that stuff with my book.

Stephanie: I love it.

Mary: But she's running the press. I don't do anything for the kind of day to day. You're right. I would not have time to do that. No, I don't have. Yeah, I am not running that press. I am just sort of like co-founder, big advocate, and one of the first authors in the press. Yeah.

The Importance of Sharing Untold Stories

Stephanie: Love it, love it. No, I really love it. And then you guys are gonna be opening submissions. Like it seems like you're looking for new work in different like categories. So I think that's super exciting for authors looking to kind of maybe they feel like they haven't been able to find the right fit for their work. And yeah.

Mary: It’s anything around these stories of these topics that Big Five publishers or really any publishers shy away from. They don't want to touch. We've had such interesting conversations about how like, mean, OK, so our first two books are her memoir and my memoir. Like I mentioned, her memoir is Infant loss, my memoir is miscarriages. She and I have talked about how our memoirs are about the most transformative things that have happened in our lives. They have defined us as people, as women, as mothers. And for those to be topics that publishing doesn't touch, it's not like a small omission. It's like not touching the most transformative part of half the population's lives.

It's a really big thing that's missing in terms of like the book market. What's available right for for women to read when there's why I couldn't find these books. It's why you know my I had a really good friend whose baby died last year and like when she was looking for stories to read. It's like you find one. It was like Rob Delaney's book about his two-year-old getting cancer and dying, which is, I'm sure, had a lot. And she told me it did. Yes, it did have a lot of overlap with her losing her son when he was two weeks old, but also not. Because that's actually very different. It's a man. It's a toddler. It's years later. It's not like, it's a completely, he didn't go through, she had a traumatic emergency C-section. She had the bodily trauma afterward, right? All of that stuff, we need to have these stories out there because women are living the stuff every day, right? And when you're living it, you just don't wanna be alone, right? You wanna be like, who else has had this happen to them and how did they get through it?

Stephanie: It kind of makes me think about how like now people are talking about menopause and perimenopause and that was always like a very taboo subject. So I just wonder like maybe you guys are too ahead of the curve. You know what I mean? It's like the stories need to start coming out and then it's going to be like more and more and more in the conversation. Hopefully we'll just like expand and continue. You know, that's what I'm hoping what I, what I feel like.

Mary: Me too, I hope so. But thanks for asking about it, because I get very passionate talking about it.

Writing Through Grief: The Healing Power of Memoir

Stephanie: I mean, actually kind of going back to, you know, your memoir and writing about, grief, trauma, those experiences, I can only imagine kind of how difficult that must have been for you. How do you write through these kind of really, you know, big kind of emotions and transformative kind of events. Like how do you do that? How can one do that?

Mary: It was so different than writing fiction. I mean, it was interesting just how different it was, because I would have to kind of do it in spurts. It would need to take a walk. I need to step away. I would kind of feel like I would sometimes type, and my hands would be trembling, because it would be like going back to something that was really hard to go back to. But in that way, it was also healing. It was really healing. think, I don't know. I feel like it's the best. I mean, writers, we write for a reason, right? It's a process. I think it's hard to imagine how I would have come out of that year if I didn't write about it. And maybe if I had not written a memoir, I still would have journaled probably. But I think the memoir served that same purpose.

It’s funny too, because when we launch our memoirs we both don't know what that's going to feel like. I've launched novels, but it's like this is so personal and it's like probably going to invite other people to share their stories. And like I welcome those. And it's also I can see it being really intense. Like, I just don't know. I don't know what that's going to feel like. You know.

Navigating a Busy Life

Stephanie: Yeah, I guess it's gonna be kind of you have to navigate it as you experience it kind of just give yourself space and all of that. It's a lot. Okay, so, okay, you're very busy, which we already established. So yes, you're also a mom, you've got the press, you've got The Book Incubator, you're writing, you're going be attending a conference soon. You've got a retreat coming up this summer in Italy. Okay. So maybe just talk about like literally how do you manage your time or you know, your mind to just like get everything you want done. And I mean, I know it's impossible to get everything you want done, but you, you do have a lot, like you do a lot and you manage to pack a lot in. Maybe you can tell us how mere mortals, how you do it and what you don't do.

Mary: Yeah. So OK, so I know. And feel like a little bit embarrassed. I don't mean to be like, I'm so busy, know, because it's so boring when people are like, I'm the busiest person. You're like, no, we're all busy. get it. No, we're all busy. I think, OK, so one thing that I do and I do think works really well for me is I do not spread myself then. I do not try to do it all at the same time because then I would do it all badly.

I don't know if you ever heard of this book called The One Thing. Do you remember this? It was kind of big. I can't even remember if it was a business book or a self-help book. I do remember that I read it. But it was essentially like in order to be an effective person and business owner or whatever it is you're doing, you should only ever be focused on one thing. And it should be like, the most important thing at that time. And I really took that to heart. So that is what I do.

I also once heard Cheryl Strayed. I'm sure you've heard me say this before, because I've said it a million times. But Cheryl Strayed described herself as a binge writer, where she's like, if she's working on something, she's obsessed with it. And then if she's not working on it, she's not writing. And so I'm so pairing those two things, like the one thing and then like the binge writing, it's like, I will have a priority and all of my energy goes into that for a finite period of time. Like this week, this is very boring, but this week it's Google Ads. Because like I need to fix our Google Ads for The Book Incubator. I have spent five hours on that today until like before meeting with you, because that's what I'm doing.

I'm not also trying to work on my novel this week. Like I can't do both of those things and be a mom and like try to get my steps in so that I'm moving. You know, like, but it's like, okay, I'm hoping to knock that out this week. And then next week I can go back to the novel and spend like, and by saying it's like the main focus, I don't mean I'm spending eight hours a day on it. but like even two hours is like really good for me.

Stephanie: I hear you.

Mary: Two hours of writing is very solid. But two hours of writing doesn't mean, then the rest of the six hours a day, I can be doing a bunch of business stuff. I don't have eight hours of productivity. I don't know about you, but I don't think anyone does. Yeah, that's not human. That's impossible. Maybe four or five. Yeah.

Stephanie: I don't think anyone actually does. No. No. Maybe four or five. Maybe.

Mary: But like I could do four or five of like Google ads because I don't know why. That's different than like, I don't know that I can write for four or five hours. Maybe if I spread it out and take a lot of breaks and like walk or I don't know. But that's pretty high for me. That would be a lot of writing in a day if I could get four or five hours in. That's definitely the high end.

Stephanie: I feel like that gives me, well, permission. Like sometimes I'm like, I wish, you know, I could write for, you know, whatever. And I just like, I can't seem to just do that much volume in a day of writing. I have to break it up too. I can do a couple hours and then I'm okay. I need to go for a walk or I don't know, bake some muffins and then, you know, maybe do something different with like a different part of my brain and then get back to writing.

Mary: Yes, me too. Run errands. I do a lot of running errands just to change it off of like, I have to get out of the house and not look at a screen or not, you know. So what do I need to mail or yeah, do I need to go to the grocery store? It's like, I intentionally don't buy groceries all at once. Like I, it's almost like counterintuitive. You know, the people who are like those life coaches or people who are like, meal plan, like do all your shopping one day and plan all your meals for a week. It's like, no, I like having an excuse to go do something else. Like I go buy food for us almost every day, just for that night or just because it's like, I need a break. I need a mental break. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie: It's good. It's healthy. I think that's healthy. I think people probably need to take more breaks if you're in the corporate office and sitting down and meeting after meeting and whatever. Having been in that world for a long time.

Mary: Yes. And all that screen time just like, or face FaceTime. Like it's a lot. Yeah.

The Importance of Mindset in Writing

Stephanie: It's, yeah, it is a lot. It is a lot. okay. Actually kind of maybe going back to thinking about mindset. Why do you think it's so important in terms of your writing goals? I remember, I don't know if it was one of your lessons. You kind of talked about like the kind of the trifecta of the kind of the three main things that are important and mindset was one of those things that you identified. Why is it so important? Why do think it's such a critical piece of the puzzle?

Mary: There's kind of this three-part framework, the way like to think about it. And it's mindset, process, and craft. And those are the three areas where you need to get everything aligned in those three areas. And then it's like magic. It works. It's like craft is how you make the book good. Process is how you get it done in an efficient way that you're not miserable and want to die.

Mindset though, like what you're asking about is how you get it done. It's how you show up. So I think it's so important because, for instance, when people join The Book Incubator, it's almost always people who have started. It's very rare that someone joins The Book Incubator and has not written a word of their book. Much more common is there anywhere from 500, 1,000 words on the low end to 30,000 words or 50,000 words or almost full draft or sometimes even a full draft. Then they get stuck. And it's always mindset. That's why people get stuck, whether it's at the beginning or the middle or the end. It's become overwhelming. The idea of finishing or continuing or revising, it feels like I need someone to walk me through this. I'm overwhelmed. Either I don't know where to plug in, or I don't know what to do next, or I don't believe I can do it. See, because I lump all that under mindset.

Stephanie: I think that's true and I feel like that's probably one of the things. I mean, I knew I needed help with, you know, craft and like, my writing can always be better, but like, I mindset was probably one of the big reasons. I was just like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to approach this or just like feeling like alone. I mean, cause writers were, you know, you do it in solid, like it's solitary work for the most part. You kind of don't have anyone to know like what makes sense anymore and how to approach things. So that's what I think community can be so great like.

Mary: So great. Because then you know you're not alone in wondering those questions. Like, what if this is a waste of time? Am I capable of doing this? It's like you realize, everyone's thinking those things. And this is just part of the process, right? It's also funny because in terms of mindset, also think of a way of thinking about the mindset piece is like, and this is such a mind game that I'm still dealing with. Every time you write a draft, especially the first draft, which I think is the hardest, you have to be OK with writing something that's not good. And that is so hard.

It's like walking outside without a shirt on or something, right? It's like just, you have to be okay with embarrassing yourself, kind of. Even if it's just embarrassing yourself in front of yourself, you know? And that's really hard to do, right? Like, it's, I don't know, it's tough.

Stephanie: I agree. It's kind of just like, you're just like, okay, this is what I think is maybe good enough, but I know it's not good enough, but I still had to do something. Now what? Yeah. The first draft is hard. And I think I struggle with that personally. Like, and that's why I, like your reminder, don't edit while you go. And that's like what I do all the time. And I'm like, I had to stop myself from this latest, you know, manuscript I'm working on. I'm like, my gosh, stop.

Mary: You had to get something down, right?

Stephanie: It's not going to be perfect. This first draft, like, I don't know why I keep thinking, this is going to be great. It's going to need like no revisions. It's like, it's just, it's the process. The process is the process. I think it's maybe accepting that too.

Mary: Exactly. Accepting it. Also, the irony is that I kind of think as we do this more and more. Because, OK, so right now, is this your third novel you're writing or fourth? Technically, your third. Yeah. No, but yeah. That's the one I read. Your second's the one I read, right? Or my gosh.

Stephanie: I guess it's technically, yeah, my first was horrible, but yeah, second I actually like and I want to sell it, but yeah, third, so third. you read my first. My second's better. You should read my second.

Mary: Your first one is not terrible. Your first one is not terrible. It is not, seriously, it really isn't. I still remember it. Tell it to you right now. So see, that's not terrible. There are books I don't even remember reading. And I remember reading your, like published books I don't remember reading. Yeah, I would love to read it. Well, so, okay, so by your third novel, you're like, the irony is like I do feel like you're getting.

Stephanie: Aww. my god, please don't. Well, you can, I'll send my second one. You can tell me if it's worth pursuing.

Mary: We do get better at writing a first draft. Like, it's not that it won't need revision, right? But it's like, we do get better at it. But like, we just have to understand it's not going to be done. Like, we're still going to want to make it better. And that's good, right? Because then it's better. But and like, revision isn't, I don't know. I don't, I kind of, I like revision now. Revision has really grown on me. But it's just getting that first.

Stephanie: I want to get there. I want to get to the revision. I think it's funny because in my freelance writing life, love revision. Novel writing, I think because it's just such a beast of like, there's just so much to handle versus like my freelance works, like it's a 1500 word story. Like I can handle that, right? But.

Mary: Right, yeah. I agree. I think the size of revision, the scope of it, is the hardest part. It's like, how on earth do we manage all of that?

Yeah, and I think, I agree. I think that's the hardest part. So I think if like, if they're like, when we can find ways to make it feel a little bit more manageable, it becomes more fun.

Advice for New Writers

Stephanie: Yeah, that's true. I like that. I'm going to think about that as I, once I get to the revising stage. Yeah, get through the draft. Okay, last question. If there's one thing you'd want, you know, new writers to consider when they're working towards their writing goals, what advice would you share with them knowing what you know now?

Mary: I think it's this thing we've been talking about, which to you and me now, this is probably kind of old hat because we've talked about it so much or thought about it. But if you haven't thought about it, it can be very strange at first, but I think it’s very liberating to not edit as you go on a first draft. It's really hard. I remember that you really struggle with that for a while.

Stephanie: Yes, I feel like we talked about that in like calls.

Mary: Yeah, yeah, because it was you were so accustomed to doing that, right? Have you done it? Do you do it less now?

Stephanie: Actually that's what got my second manuscript done in a lot less time. And I actually think some parts were better because I just was like, let's just keep going. I didn't keep tinkering, like I can always tinker with it later. It's cause I love to just like tinker with words and you get just so obsessed with it. And you're like, but wait, my story's not actually progressing. Right.

Mary: Right. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like, yeah, that's what is the irony of it. That's what an irony of it. Like, I feel like when we stop editing, a lot of times it ends up better. The story's better.

Stephanie: You get into that flow state a lot easier when you don't edit. And I know you talk about kind of that editing mind and like kind of the writing mind. And I do think that they are separate. And I do think it's good to get into that writer mind flow state because you just, you can't, you're doing different processes with your brain. I'm sure neuroscience will show us that then when you're like in that flow state, like you're not thinking, you're just going.

Mary: Exactly. And I don't know about you, and this will sound kind of mystical, but I feel like when I'm reading a novel as a reader, like a published novel, a lot of times I feel like I can tell the moment the writer got into the flow. It feels like I just got into the flow. It just feels like suddenly it became a little bit less work.

I actually thought that the other day with the novel James that won like a million, it won all the awards last year and I finally just read it. And to be totally honest, it was a little bit of a slog for me at the beginning. I did not love it at first. And there was a moment where I was like, I feel like he just got into it and it's like we like the boat just got pushed off from shore or something. I don't know. It really was. It was like a shift in the energy of the book. Like I don't know 40 pages in or something. I think it's a thing.

Stephanie: I think that's a thing. I think that's a thing. I bet that's a thing. And it's funny, I feel like maybe there's like a point every writer gets in that novel where you suddenly, maybe it flips. And maybe it's like at the point where we feel like we know who our people are. Cause there's like, you're trying to get, you're figuring out who I am writing with, who are these people? Like you don't know them yet. Which is when I try to explain to people who don't write, they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, no, no, no, but you don't understand.

I'm still learning these people. I'm discovering them, like we discover them as you write them. So, I actually, yeah, I got to read that novel. haven't, it's on my list, obviously, but.

Mary: Yeah, it's really good. I ended up loving it.

Stephanie: I love your recommendations always.

Mary: Good. You'll like this one then. Because I really did. It's like one of my favorite novels ever. But it took me a minute. It took a minute for me to be like, is this going to be like this the whole time? Like, I was determined to finish it because it won all the awards. I'm like, it's supposed to be good. But I was a little worried it was going to feel like work. And then suddenly it did it.

Stephanie: Well, thank you so much, Mary. Appreciate your time and people can find you where?

Mary: My pleasure, this was really fun. Well, thebookincubator.com is where they can learn about that program. And then my books, well, my website is maryadkinswriter.com. So you can go there if you wanna see what the book titles are. Thank you.

Stephanie: Okay, I'll add all the things down below and you can find Mary and follow her and she's the best. Thanks again, Mary.

Mary: Thanks Stephanie, you're the best. This was fun.